Comments on: The Jigsaw of Theology, or Theology at the Edge. http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/ discipleship | mission | practical theology Tue, 18 May 2010 11:56:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: brett jordan http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/comment-page-1/#comment-1265 brett jordan Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:54:06 +0000 http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/#comment-1265 It occurs to me that the piece you reject has a very good chance of being a corner piece. It occurs to me that the piece you reject has a very good chance of being a corner piece.

]]> By: elizabeth http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/comment-page-1/#comment-1244 elizabeth Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:35:32 +0000 http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/#comment-1244 I must add though that I've learnt things from you too, I'm pleased to have stumbled across your site. (More) pax et bonum I must add though that I’ve learnt things from you too, I’m pleased to have stumbled across your site. (More) pax et bonum

]]> By: elizabeth http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/comment-page-1/#comment-1240 elizabeth Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:31:58 +0000 http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/#comment-1240 I cannot imagine what context there might be other than the creation; we cannot be outside of it... except perhaps through prayer (now there's a clue:-)). And I do believe that understanding fellow Christians is not merely a "worthy persuit" but an absolutely essential step on this steep path of ours and that it is often HARDER to do than to understand other non-Christians (family squabbles are usually the most poisonous (see attitudes to synagogues and "The Jews" in gospels of Matt and Jn). Anyway your jigsaw puzzle isn't a bad idea, I think I detected a note of snobbish intolerance in your december posting about the sacraments and that's what inspired me to write. I have to say that I came across your blogg quite by accident whilst looking for something else. Actually if for a moment one considers that there is no such thing as coincidence then instead of getting cross about it, it is worth taking note of what I have said because seemingly it is something you were meant to hear. pax et bonum I cannot imagine what context there might be other than the creation; we cannot be outside of it… except perhaps through prayer (now there’s a clue:-)). And I do believe that understanding fellow Christians is not merely a “worthy persuit” but an absolutely essential step on this steep path of ours and that it is often HARDER to do than to understand other non-Christians (family squabbles are usually the most poisonous (see attitudes to synagogues and “The Jews” in gospels of Matt and Jn). Anyway your jigsaw puzzle isn’t a bad idea, I think I detected a note of snobbish intolerance in your december posting about the sacraments and that’s what inspired me to write. I have to say that I came across your blogg quite by accident whilst looking for something else. Actually if for a moment one considers that there is no such thing as coincidence then instead of getting cross about it, it is worth taking note of what I have said because seemingly it is something you were meant to hear. pax et bonum

]]> By: Graham http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/comment-page-1/#comment-1230 Graham Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:21:37 +0000 http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/#comment-1230 Elizabeth: Thanks for dropping by and indeed thoroughly reading previous posts. I reply though, I agree the the edge pieces are very elusive and complex and almost certainly beyond our small brains. Certainly one of the common outcomes of studying theology is realising how much you don't know and probably won't But… We can discuss our approach, which is more where the jigsaw image fits in for me. Whether evangelical with a focus on the Cross [at least traditionally] or catholic with a focus on the Eucharist [probably underselling] the jigsaw image is there to help think through the place of the focus. Inevitably though you are bound to meet the hermeneutical circle and wonder for a long time where to start and when to finish. "understanding your fellow Christians" always seems like a good place to start, indeed it is why I, from charismatic evangelical experience, would choose to come here to Ripon College Cuddesdon, with a liberal catholic background, to train for ordination in a broad church. Yes, understanding fellow Christians is a worthy pursuit. What is perhaps more demanding is understanding my fellow humans "Christian" or not, in the context of a creation that God loves so much. Elizabeth: Thanks for dropping by and indeed thoroughly reading previous posts.

I reply though, I agree the the edge pieces are very elusive and complex and almost certainly beyond our small brains. Certainly one of the common outcomes of studying theology is realising how much you don’t know and probably won’t But…

We can discuss our approach, which is more where the jigsaw image fits in for me. Whether evangelical with a focus on the Cross [at least traditionally] or catholic with a focus on the Eucharist [probably underselling] the jigsaw image is there to help think through the place of the focus. Inevitably though you are bound to meet the hermeneutical circle and wonder for a long time where to start and when to finish.

“understanding your fellow Christians” always seems like a good place to start, indeed it is why I, from charismatic evangelical experience, would choose to come here to Ripon College Cuddesdon, with a liberal catholic background, to train for ordination in a broad church. Yes, understanding fellow Christians is a worthy pursuit. What is perhaps more demanding is understanding my fellow humans “Christian” or not, in the context of a creation that God loves so much.

]]> By: Graham http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/comment-page-1/#comment-1229 Graham Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:32:37 +0000 http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/#comment-1229 JP, glad you had a good holiday. I think this image is a helpful first step in trying to think about theology and what my hermeneutic might be as I approach various theological situations. I have often used this image when beginning to teach various groups as it helps to understand why we might need to spend do long on trinity, creation, relationships and community before we get to the 'exciting' bits of the passion. I say exciting because that is often all their is in the theological tool box of most of the people I have taught. Once some of the edge has been done though, the 'exciting' parts of the picture often take on a whole new level of meaning and depth. I agree that Jesus Christ belongs on the edge, I mean in the middle… oh dam that hermeneutical circle again! JP, glad you had a good holiday.

I think this image is a helpful first step in trying to think about theology and what my hermeneutic might be as I approach various theological situations. I have often used this image when beginning to teach various groups as it helps to understand why we might need to spend do long on trinity, creation, relationships and community before we get to the ‘exciting’ bits of the passion. I say exciting because that is often all their is in the theological tool box of most of the people I have taught. Once some of the edge has been done though, the ‘exciting’ parts of the picture often take on a whole new level of meaning and depth.

I agree that Jesus Christ belongs on the edge, I mean in the middle… oh dam that hermeneutical circle again!

]]> By: Graham http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/comment-page-1/#comment-1228 Graham Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:31:17 +0000 http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/#comment-1228 Brett, sorry for the slow response - I have been in bed for a few days now trying to hold back flu type things. Anyway - modernist tends to sound a little like an insult now-a-days. Not for one moment that I think you were insulting me, but it was interesting to note my reaction when I read you comment. So much so that I think I will be replying with a new posting later today. Brett, sorry for the slow response – I have been in bed for a few days now trying to hold back flu type things.
Anyway – modernist tends to sound a little like an insult now-a-days. Not for one moment that I think you were insulting me, but it was interesting to note my reaction when I read you comment. So much so that I think I will be replying with a new posting later today.

]]> By: JP http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/comment-page-1/#comment-1219 JP Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:45:26 +0000 http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/#comment-1219 Very interesting image, Graham. I've cross-posted on my blog - hope you don't mind! Do you think the Trinity is the first edge piece, or the centre of the picture? Either way, Jesus Christ has to be one of the cornerpieces - but I'll leave deliberately vague whether or not I'd emphasise the Incarnation or the Passion ... Very interesting image, Graham. I’ve cross-posted on my blog – hope you don’t mind!

Do you think the Trinity is the first edge piece, or the centre of the picture? Either way, Jesus Christ has to be one of the cornerpieces – but I’ll leave deliberately vague whether or not I’d emphasise the Incarnation or the Passion …

]]> By: Elizabeth Simoneau http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/comment-page-1/#comment-1218 Elizabeth Simoneau Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:50:34 +0000 http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/#comment-1218 The thing is, that you'll have just as much a job at explaining the Trinity as you do understanding the "mysteries" beloved of anglo-catholics and evangelicals (07/12). St Augustine spent years trying to get a handle on the Trinity and, according to an old Burgundy-based monk I spoke with recently, was one day walking on the beach and saw a small boy running to the sea, filling a jar with water and then running back to a hole he had made in the sand. As he tried to fill the hole with water so it immediately drained away. Augustine laughed and said to the lad "you'll never fill that hole with water" but the boy answered "and neither will you ever understand the Trinity". I wish you luck finding the edges but I'm afraid you'll find them oh so elusive. Studying theology is indeed a great joy... but you can't put the Infinite into a jigsaw puzzle box. Which is precisely why, my brother, the Catholics cannot explain their mysteries - for how is it less logical to bow before a "real presence" than to simply claim "Jesus is alive today" or "God is present throughout his creation" or "Jesus is the second person of the Trinity wholly man and wholly God"? The real presence is an ancient way of crystalising all that is marvellous and all that is transcedendant in the notions of the incarnation, the resurrection and the continued presence of Christ in creation, just as the evangelicals' falling to the ground is the quite understandable reaction of small weak human beings in the presence of God (which also has an ancient heritage stretching back into the dawn of time - though it would be nice to brush such things aside with a sensible Chruch of England attitude, God is rather bigger even than the Broad Church and brings his sheep into the fold in all manner of different ways). You wil never understand the Trinity (nobody can), you will never find the edges to your jigsaw (nobody can!)but you could begin by trying to understand your fellow Christians whatever their denominations. I wish you all the best. By the way I was born in Sutton Coldfield too but I fear a good deal longer ago. All the best Graham with your Theological studies. The thing is, that you’ll have just as much a job at explaining the Trinity as you do understanding the “mysteries” beloved of anglo-catholics and evangelicals (07/12). St Augustine spent years trying to get a handle on the Trinity and, according to an old Burgundy-based monk I spoke with recently, was one day walking on the beach and saw a small boy running to the sea, filling a jar with water and then running back to a hole he had made in the sand. As he tried to fill the hole with water so it immediately drained away. Augustine laughed and said to the lad “you’ll never fill that hole with water” but the boy answered “and neither will you ever understand the Trinity”. I wish you luck finding the edges but I’m afraid you’ll find them oh so elusive. Studying theology is indeed a great joy… but you can’t put the Infinite into a jigsaw puzzle box. Which is precisely why, my brother, the Catholics cannot explain their mysteries – for how is it less logical to bow before a “real presence” than to simply claim “Jesus is alive today” or “God is present throughout his creation” or “Jesus is the second person of the Trinity wholly man and wholly God”? The real presence is an ancient way of crystalising all that is marvellous and all that is transcedendant in the notions of the incarnation, the resurrection and the continued presence of Christ in creation, just as the evangelicals’ falling to the ground is the quite understandable reaction of small weak human beings in the presence of God (which also has an ancient heritage stretching back into the dawn of time – though it would be nice to brush such things aside with a sensible Chruch of England attitude, God is rather bigger even than the Broad Church and brings his sheep into the fold in all manner of different ways). You wil never understand the Trinity (nobody can), you will never find the edges to your jigsaw (nobody can!)but you could begin by trying to understand your fellow Christians whatever their denominations.
I wish you all the best. By the way I was born in Sutton Coldfield too but I fear a good deal longer ago. All the best Graham with your Theological studies.

]]> By: brett jordan http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/comment-page-1/#comment-1213 brett jordan Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:08:28 +0000 http://grahamstacey.info/2007/02/11/the-jigsaw-of-theology-or-theology-at-the-edge/#comment-1213 graham, i never realised you were such a modernist :-) brett graham, i never realised you were such a modernist :-)

brett

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